Universalism?
Ok, ok, so I'm showing some first day excitement. But this isn't technicially a new thread - the conversation started after our CSW meeting with a couple of guys in the car a couple of weeks ago. These were a few of the questions that came out that night (which are deliberately provocative):1) What is 'original sin'? Is it an individual (quasi-genetic) inheritance or a community (all humanity) concept? Where do Romans 5 (esp v 18) and 1 Cor 15 (esp v. 22) fit in?
2) Is God concerned with "getting people into heaven" or something more like relationship with him/others here and now?
3) If it's the latter, are we all somehow in a relationship with him? Is anyone, therefore, 'lost' at all? Or are some merely 'further away'?
A nice light one to get us started! Thoughts anyone?
posted by Jamie at Friday, February 03, 2006
12 Comments:
Stuart Wier wrote his 402 on universalism when at ICC. The libary should have a copy of this.
I'll get to reading that asap as I am hoping to look at Moltmann's slant on Universalism for an essay soon. In the meantime Stuart has left a related comment here.
Well, I've read Stuart's dissertation (nice job mate) and I've also written my own essay on the subject now. Don't worry, I'm not going to repeat it here! But I do have one or two thoughts.
What if universalism is true? What are we concerned about? That we're not the exclusive club we thought we were?
At the end of his dissertation Stuart asked this question of universalism: does it undermine mission? This is an important question. If it means we get apathetic about our mission then universal salvation is cause for concern.
But I'm not sure this is the case. What I think it means is that, if universalism is true, we need a paradigm shift in the way we do mission. "Turn or burn" isn't exactly working anyway, is it?
But if we have a proper understanding of what life is like without Christ (i.e. it's separation from God and literally 'hell on earth') then isn't that enough motivation to call people back into a restored relationship with their creator (and creation, and each other)?
The doctrine that all creation will be restored, if viewed properly, should fill us with hope and produce thrilling kingdom living now. Isn't that the sort of credible, holistic, engaging hope the world needs?
There's a few of my musings, and something like a condensed version of the essay. Full text available if you're mad enough!
The problem I see with that is the fact that for many people, if this is hell on earth, then hell's not actually so bad. They seem to be doing ok without the God we're alleging they're created for, so they'll happily not bother with Jesus without the fear that it will cost them anything eternal. It could be seen to lower the stakes.
Of course, if it's true, this is irrelevant. But whether it's a neutral subject which we can take or leave I don't know. A lot of Jesus' parables describe a coming gnashing of teeth, and exclusive narrow gate, or some other (dare I say) bounded set.
An open letter to the International Christian College:
Dear ICC
Two years ago my friend Jamie was a good conservative evangelical boy who would never hurt a fly. (The fly's own cosmic rebellion could be held wholly responsible for its eternal besquishment, its lack of repentance manifested by it's outright refusal to have a daily quiet time of at least 20 minutes in a room with a closed door).
Now he's talking about parts of the bible that we evangelicals realised years ago only look problematic because of our own unworthiness, as if they might mean what they look like they say! Indeed he keeps going back to them to find out what they mean, rather than filing them under 'To be considered after the Tribulation' like the rest of us do.
I have always respected your institution as a place able to train people for the Great Silent Bible Study Up In the Sky which we all eagerly await. Please revise your course to make it more relevant to the 16th Century debates all right-minded Christians should be having.
Grace and peace
Box
- PS, here I don't refer to a literal fly literally flying until literally squished. Only inspired authors of the bits of scripture we like can be said always to write with this degree of legal-contract-style literalism.
Stuart's probably more qualified to speak for Moltmann on this point, but I have few thougts, so bear with me. My understanding of Moltmann is that he interprets such texts as Lk 13 as not being the final state of the apostate. He argues for a post-mortem salvation of those who do not accept Christ in this life.
Hell, for Moltmann, performs much more of a purgatorial/educational role than an 'eternal punishment'. He bases this on his understanding of the work of Christ on the cross being for all creation. That's my understanding of him, anyhow, and it has patristic precedent (e.g. Origen, Gregory of Nyssa).
That Jesus doesn't say something like "there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, but only for a while" doesn't mean that this universalist interpretation is undermined. When Jesus talks of the coming judgment, he is (arguably) performing a prophetic role to the Jews (see, e.g. Mt 8:12), in much the same way that Isaiah warned of the Assyrian invasion and capture of Jerusalem as a means of turning the people back to God (cf. Is 29. Maybe "turn or burn" was a suitable evangelism style in that context!). In other places Jesus (like Isaiah) balanced this warning with the promises of universal salvation (e.g Jn 12:32)
In all this, Moltmann never says that he supports a doctrine of universalism. In fact, he says in Theology of Hope that “there can be no ‘doctrine’ of the last things” (p. 2). What he presents, then, is his hope (built on Scripture) rather than systematic doctrine.
Your comment on the missions implications of hell "not being that bad" if it is understood as a present experience is a good question (and one I now wish I had put in my essay!).
But I wonder if it betrays our common concern with "getting people's souls into heaven". Jesus never answered the question of whether "only a few people [are] going to be saved" (Lk 13:22) but instead talked about the narrow door to enter the kingdom (which I understand as a 'now-but-not-yet' restoration of all things in Christ).
What if missions wasn't about giving people the 'bad news' so they'll convert and escape hell? What if we got on with the business of bearing (holistic) witness to the present and coming kingdom (the context of Jesus' comments in Lk 13) here and now and invited people to join us in that? In doing that we would aim to point them to the King.
re: your open letter.
hehe. Now now, Box, sarcasm doesn't become you ;)
Stuart has posted another comment on Universalism, but being the iconocalst he is he's put it here. Honestly, some people! ;)
Stuart
Thanks for that - I don't think I was suggesting mission is at stake, merely that, precisely as you say, without hell there is no stick to accompany the divine carrot.
I guess I have no fixed opinion on the subject - a search for 'save', 'reconcil...', 'justifi...' through the NIV would definitely be inconclusive. It seems that some writers in the New Testament believed in eternal torment at least.
I'm willing to concede on Luke 13. What does Matthew 5 mean? 'He who says "you fool" etc. will be in danger of the fire of hell'.
That doesn't sound much like AD 77. It does sound like punishment.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Confusion reigns! I got an e-mail today from a friend with whom i'd had the universalism conversation, suggesting John 3:16 implies eternal punishment. I don't necessarily agree but still, could some theo-boff tell me what "the fire of hell" would have meant to a first century Jew listening to Jesus because I only see Sheol in my OT? And, Jamie, where does Moltmann get a purgatorial idea from? Here's a few tricky ones:
"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!" Galatians 1:8
"Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory." 2 Timothy 2:10
"In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire." Jude 1:7
Meanwhile, for those of you who do believe that there is an eternal punishment, what do you do with these verses?
"Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." John 12:31-32
"Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men." Romans 5:18
"For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." Romans 11:32
"And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ." Ephesians 1:9-10
"For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross." Colossians 1:19-20
"This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe." 1 Timothy 4:9-10
"For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time." 1 Timothy 2:5-6
My hunch (today) is that whatever God does on the Day of Judgement, we're gonna be surprised. Meanwhile, we have a job - 'making disciples'.
Post a Comment
<< Home